All through school, I was taught that when one writes a list, no comma is needed after the second last item.
For example:
Please get milk, eggs, butter, bread, sugar and salt from the grocery store.
As far as I knew, a comma would have been unnecessary after the word sugar.
Now, I’m not so sure.
An Issue of Style?
This “unnecessary” little punctuation mark is called a serial comma (aka Harvard or Oxford comma), and it’s the subject of heated debate.
Different style guides (AP, Chicago, MLA, etc.) have different opinions about the use of the serial comma, but it seems the Associated Press guide–used by journalists–omits it in order to save space.
An Issue of Country?
I was relieved to discover I’m not entirely to blame for my ignorance; it seems my Canadian upbringing (and Australian residency) has something to do with it.
While the United States calls for mandatory use of serial commas, Wikipedia claims:
In Australia, Canada, South Africa and the United Kingdom, the serial comma tends not to be used in non-academic publications unless its absence produces ambiguity.
One source also believes:
In the Canadian public education system, it appears that educators actually teach students that it’s wrong to use a serial comma.
Whew! I don’t feel so bad now. Both countries in which I’ve attended school, and worked as an educator, tend not to use serial commas.
The government of Canada’s Language Portal says:
While a comma before the final and is optional, a comma can alter the meaning.
They suggest the serial comma be used when it clears up ambiguity.
What Makes the Most Sense?
Mignon Fogarty–better known as Grammar Girl–believes:
Although the serial comma isn’t always necessary, I favor it because often it does add clarity, and I believe in having a simple, consistent style, instead of trying to decide whether you need something on a case-by-case basis.
Now that I’m aware of the issue, I agree that consistent use of the serial comma avoids having to inspect your sentence to be sure the meaning is clear without it, and that’s why I’ve decided to use it from now on.
Part of me feels the serial comma is unnecessary in simple sentences, but another part of me thinks it’s too much trouble to check for clarity every time you might need to use it.
My questions for you are:
- In which country were you educated? (I’m particularly interested to hear from other Canadians and Australians to find out if their experiences were similar to mine.)
- What were you taught about the use of serial commas?
- What is your take on serial commas today, and why?
For more information on serial commas, check out the following articles:
- Serial Comma, Wikipedia
- Serial Comma, Grammar Girl
- The Serial Comma is OK with Me, Daily Writing Tips
- The Case of the Serial Comma, Professional Training Company
I was raised (and still live) in New Zealand so I grew up with the “no comma before and” method.
But having read so many books with the serial comma I too began to doubt my method and wonder if, in fact, I had got it wrong. I was told “The serial comma is an American thing so don’t do it, you don’t need it”.
I don’t bother to use it, however, I sometimes wonder if I was to get an American agent or publisher would I be forced to change to the American way?
The same goes for spelling all the words we write differently. Is an American agent going to think I don’t know how to spell when I’m adding “u”‘s to words where they don’t have them, like the word colour?
I think spelling is different because everyone should be aware of U.S/British spelling differences. The intricacies of grammar are less well-known, so I would worry more about that than spelling. 🙂
It’s not really the “American way”. The serial comma is considered optional here as well.
I was raised in the United States and taught not to use a serial comma, and I still can’t bring myself to do it. To me, it doesn’t add clarity but makes me *pause* unnecessarily before reading “and xxx”.
I think I am going to need to find a publisher who can deal with my eccentricity because I’m not sure I could stand to read my own words with serial commas, LOL! That’s how strongly I feel!
Interesting that you were taught not to use it in the U.S–I wonder if that was a state-wide or more localized teaching. And my, how passionate you feel about it! 🙂 Can’t say I’m that fussed one way or the other. I do see pros and cons on both sides.
Near Philadelphia, PA, I have always preferred the use of the serial comma. First, either using the serial comma or omitting the serial comma will introduce ambiguity. However, sometimes, I find it more confusing if the serial comma is omitted. For example, when the serial comma is omitted, I can mistake a list of 3 items for 1 item and an apposition. Next, using the serial comma in a comma-separated list is consistent with the style of semicolon-separated lists.
What is today’s relevance for saving character space when omitting the serial comma? I do think that this is a silly argument because, in the 21th century, character space should no longer be a serious limit. I can maybe grant an exception for news publications.
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A couple hours after you published this article, this article is currently the 4th result on the Google search for “australia serial comma”. 😮 Google’s indexing speed is pretty fast.
Also, just something I noticed, this site’s favicon is closely similar to the favicon in the Wikipedia tab that I have opened next to this tab.
That’s pretty cool that I’m on the first page for “Australia serial comma.” Thanks for letting me know!
I live in the United States and only ever came across a problem with “, and” when I got to college. For all intents and purposes, it’s optional, and I personally could live without using it. The guy at the writing center who edited my essay had other ideas, though…
I was brought up in Italy but attended an international/American school there. We were taught to use serial commas and it’s difficult for me now — living in the UK — to stop using them!
I tend to just confuse people, I suppose. While I mostly use British spelling now, the occasional ‘realize’ and so forth slips through, and I can be pretty incontinent with commas. Spell check has stopped the former, but as for the latter I figure I’ll just go with my gut and see how it works out.
Canadians use a weird combination of British/American spelling, too. We use the ‘z’ in ‘realize,’ etc. but also use the ‘u’ in ‘colour.’ We’re unique! 😉
I think I was taught to use it, but not by many of my teachers. However, it can only add clarity, so I am very anal about using it. It has fallen out of usage in print media, and that really annoys me. It also annoys my parents, my brother and my sister. (See what happens when you leave it out!)
It’s definitely an issue of style and *not* just an issue of country.
In the U.S. anyway:
If you’re writing in Associated Press style (for magazines or newspapers), then the serial comma gets dropped. If you’re writing a novel, however? According to the Chicago Manual of Style (the style/format for manuscripts, etc.), you need the serial comma. Same thing if you’re writing in MLA format (in high school or college).
Of course, consistency is key within a given work, as pointed out above.
I was taught in the US (I was homeschooled) and as a young writer learned this was one of the punctuation rules that could go either way.
I settled on serial commas, including on the last item in the list. I always looked funny to see cats, dogs, lizards and ponies. In my mind, it says that lizards and ponies somehow go together in a special way, like fish and chips or salt and pepper.
Consider this sentence:
I brought salt and pepper, fish and chips, a cat, a dog, my car and an umbrella.
It makes me cringe this way. So I always add the extra comma.
I am Canadian and was educated here. I am in an online critique group with American writers and one of them always points out how I forget the commas after “and”, “but” and “or”. OOPS, forgot it after “and”. Sorry. Could this be why? And I just thought I was forgetful. Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.
I do like learning about the differences in English grammar, spelling, and word usage amongst English speaking countries. We tend to be favoring (favouring?) American spellings in the virtual world as even the spellcheck tells me it’s wrong. I see centre spelled center on signs more and more. Just a matter of time before we drop the extra u and adopt our Southern neighbor’s way of spelling. See what I mean!
I did notice that you used “amongst”, which sounds too formal for common American usage. 🙂
In some ways your critique partners are doing you a favour if you want your book to be published in the U.S. As others have said, novels tend to be published in Chicago style, so you’ll need to put in those commas eventually. I don’t know if Canadian publishers use Chicago style, though.
I have a Canadian education, but I live in the US. I question it every time I try to use the serial comma. I never really know which way to go with it. Should I? Shouldn’t I? It’s quite ridiculous really. But then, it took me a very long time to learn how to spell right. I still fight my word processor over some words. Someone just needs to step up and make a worldwide rule of one way or the other and solve all our headaches.
If you have no arguments against the serial comma, why not just use the serial comma?
You don’t say, “Should I? Shouldn’t I?,” while deciding to put a period at the end of each sentence. A period after a sentence is an obvious choice and doesn’t need extraneous consideration. The same should be true for the addition of the serial comma. There’s no need to think about it. Use the serial comma consistently, just as you use periods consistently. If teachers taught the consistent use of the serial comma, for the student, that is one less grammar item to worry about.
I’ve been a journalist for 12 years, and American AP Style calls for no comma before the last item in a series. When I started writing fiction a little over a year ago, I stuck with what I knew and didn’t use one. But in revisions of my manuscript, I’ve gone back and forth about it.
I debated it so hard one night that I finally just had to laugh about it. I opened iTunes and played the song Oxford Comma by Vampire Weekend. The main line of the chorus is “who gives a f*** about an Oxford comma.” LOL.
The thing is, though, I do. I still haven’t decided whether to insert them into my manuscript.
I actually had never heard that song until after I wrote this post! Someone mentioned it on Twitter, so I looked it up, and now I can’t get it out of my head! I think everyone should use what they’re most comfortable with, as long as whatever you’re writing is clear.
As it is taught in the U.S., the serial comma must be included. When it is not there, it insinuates – at least to us – that there is a pairing of items. For instance: “Mom sent me to the store to fetch milk, eggs, cereal, salt and pepper, and nutmeg.” Certain items that are seemingly paired up in speech are able to be linked in mid-series if you follow this rule. That being said, you could also phrase the sentence like so: “Mom sent me to the store to fetch milk, eggs, cereal, nutmeg, and salt and pepper.” In the U.S., there is always a comma before the final word in a list, because our minds are geared to be expecting the end of a list when we see the “, and…” combo…at least, that’s the trend I’ve noticed. When it is absent, and the list continues, we feel somewhat confused and tricked by the writer’s unusual punctuation haha
We also, use a comma before the words “but” and “because” as opposed to afterward; as I have seen it down elsewhere. (Sorry. That was completely unrelated.)
Sorry. That “down” should have been a done*
One of my favorite examples of an ambiguous situation resolved by a serial comma turns out to have an appropriately nationalist tone: “On my desk I have photos of my parents, Elvis and Queen Elizabeth.”
On the submitting side, don’t worry about the differences in spelling and punctuation styles of your country: these differences are well known among editors. What gives us pause is inconsistencies (are you paying attention?) or misspellings of words that don’t have accepted variants (what’s your knowledge level?).
The example you give is why I not only use the serial comma, but encourage writers I work with to use it, too. I was raised in the US and don’t recall being taught to use the serial comma in school. When I took a position as a technical writer, however, I learned how important it can be to clarity. Since then, I’ve been a passionate supporter of the serial comma.
All that being said, there are times when using the serial comma can add confusion, particularly with a dependent clause. In those cases, I drop it because the most important function of grammar is to make it clear what you’re trying to say. But those times are few and far between.
I agree–if you’re consistently not using the serial comma, editors aren’t going to be hassled one way or the other.
One way a round this would simply be to rewrite the sentence. “On my desk I have photos of Elvis, Queen Elizabeth and my parents.” See. No confusion!
I keep seeing this example as a defense of the serial comma, but I just don’t see this type of sentence as ambiguous. If you were intentionally trying to phrase it to mean the problem it attempts to point out, you would say: “I dedicate this book to my parents: Ayn Rand and God”.
I grew up in the US and although not much attention was given to the comma, I had one elementary-school teacher that insisted on no comma before the last item on a list. She must have studied journalism and been an adherent of the AP style.
But it also just makes plain common sense. You don’t write “oranges, and bananas”, so why would you write “apples, oranges, and bananas”?
> But it also just makes plain common sense. You don’t write “oranges, and bananas”, so why would you write “apples, oranges, and bananas”?
@Anna, that’s not exactly the rule.
Serial comma rule:
Put a comma at the end of each item if the items of a list (with conjunction) > 2.
No serial comma rule:
Put a comma at the end of each item if the items of a list (with conjunction) > 2. BUT WAIT, THERE’S AN EXCEPTION! DO NOT PUT A COMMA BEFORE THE CONJUNCTION!
Which rule is simpler?
If you list, why is the last comma necessary?
“apples, oranges, bananas” This style would be consistent with using the serial comma.
Should it be “apples, oranges bananas”? This style would be consistent with omitting the serial comma.
I’m a fan of the serial comma. No hoity-toity reason why, either. I just write it like I say it, and I say it with a comma.
I was educated in the U.S. and was taught NOT to use the serial comma. Now though, I find so many people do use it that I have started to doubt myself. Now that I know I’m not the only one, I feel better.
US here. I was taught to use serial commas in grade school. Then, as they went out of vogue, I was told not to use them, and now that I’m a professional copy editor, I follow Chicago, and I always use them. I agree with Grammar Girl. It’s easier to use them all the time than worry about whether or not you’ve omitted one that’s necessary.
Funny about your statement that serial commas have gone out of vogue–the Canadian language portal says something about the trend towards minimalistic punctuation these days. I remember reading somewhere that if you don’t absolutely need a comma somewhere, don’t use it. I don’t know that I completely agree with that, but sometimes my sentences feel clunky with too many commas.
Great article! It’s funny because it’s true we don’t normally use it in the UK. However, and I work for a copywriter, its use is sometimes very useful to add rythm or clarify something.
My first language is Spanish though and it’s quite wrong to use a serial comma in it.
Great article! It’s funny because it’s true we don’t normally use it in the UK. However, and I work for a copywriter, its use is sometimes very useful to add rythm or clarify something.
My first language is Spanish though and it’s quite wrong to use a serial comma in it.
In my Spanish classes, I have always used the serial comma, and I never knew it was wrong. *Opps*
Right or wrong, I use the comma between the last two items on a list. It looks better and is more organized. I decided a long time ago, I am doing it that way regardless of what anyone else thinks.
Believe it or not, there was a time when it was supposed to be done that way.
Forgot to add, I’m from the USA. When I first learned to write in school, the comma was used between all items on a list. Then somewhere along the way, the rule changed. I liked it the old way so that’s how I do it!
I had different teachers all through grade school and high school teach me both ways. When I got into college I started using the serial comma before “, and” because that is the way Chicago does it and I’ve been routinely told that most novels are published in Chicago. Oh, I’m from Minnesota in the US.
In university, I used the MLA guide to write all my literature essays, and I don’t ever remember being scolded for lack of serial comma use, even though the guide calls for them. Perhaps the professors marked them in with red pen, but if they did, I guess it wasn’t a big deal because they never mentioned it (either when marking my papers or as a general rule in class).
Contrary to popular belief, Americans are taught it’s fine either way, and is a matter of choice. In fact, the only thing we were taught is that one should be consistent in its use. I use serial commas for a completely different reason. As both a writer, and a control freak, I use commas as a dictatorial device to force readers to pause where I want them to. (*Maniacal laughter ensues.)
I don’t think you need worry about an American agent’s inflicting this as style issue. Reading tons of writing for work, I actually find the serial comma’s use in the U.S. seems to be in the minority. It’s probably more an “old school” U.S. thing now than anything else.
See, that’s what would have been nice in my own education–to be informed about both styles, and left to make my own decision. The fact is, I was taught it was wrong to add a comma after the penultimate item in a list, and it’s not wrong. Maybe it was my Canadian teachers asserting their independence from our southern neighbours, or something!
Hi, I was raised in the US, and maybe because I’m older (50) I was taught solid English/grammar rules, and taught that YES, you need that comma. It looks very weird to me without it! I agree about putting it in so you won’t have to worry about a case-by-case basis. Having two spaces after a period is ultra weird too. But that’s another story. LOL
I only stopped using double spaces after I started writing for the web. Now, it drives me nuts seeing two spaces after a period, but it was never something that was mentioned during my school/uni days.
I LOVE the two spaces after the period. I think it separates the sentences better when reading. Look…I’m doing it now, even as I type haha
I didn’t think it looked weird until I stopped using it! 🙂
I went to school in Australia (being Australian) and am about to finish a univeristy degree in creative writing at an Australian uni. We didn’t actually discuss that sort of punctuation at school. However, in uni, I was told to use the comma for clarity. I should even use it in fiction writing when I say: “I placed the glass down and walked to the door.” It should be “I placed the glass down, and walked to the door.” because the actions happen at separate times. If they happened at the same time, I don’t need the comma.
However, I’m now working at a publishing house and reading manuscript corrections editors have made. In a list, they remove the serial comma. Yes, remove! Every time I see it, I want to put it back in, because to me that says ‘sugar and salt’ are actually one item, not two. So I’m still confused. I going to do post-grad study to become an editor, but really to find out how to use that pesky comma!
How very interesting that the publishing house takes out the serial comma. I’m guessing that’s because in Australia it’s technically optional. I do believe there’s a trend these days toward minimalistic punctuation–that is, if it’s not absolutely necessary, leave it out. While I do sort of see it makes for less interruptions, sometimes it just feels wrong. I’m just as confused as you are 😉 Good luck with the rest of yours studies, by the way.
I’m an Australian and I was taught the same as you. I don’t think it’s just the list thing, either. Americans seem to use more commas than us. For example ‘Jimmy went to the beach and Sally went shopping’ is okay for us, but in the US they seem to want to put a comma before the ‘and’. I tend to use a comma where I think it will add clarity and otherwise not.
The comma would go there because “Jimmy went to the beach” and “Sally went shopping” are two independent clauses. In order to form a compound sentence with two independent clauses, you would need a comma before a conjunction.I’m in the US, and that’s the grammar rule.
I must admit reading post on this matter recently made me doubt myself. However I was taught not to use a serial comma. It never even crossed my mind to use one, I find it completely unnecessary.
I’m British but I also write in french. The French do not use a serial comma either.
Interesting to note these geographical differences
I live in the US and always have. I remember being originally taught to use the serial comma in my primary years, but as I got into high school and college, it became a matter of choice and clarity within the MLA standard and depending on the professor. Now in my job, we generally use the AP style, except in cases like that and it, again, seems the be up to the person proofing the reports. My manager, who proofs the majority of the things I write, insists on the comma being there, while a few of the others who have proofed for me say it’s optional.
I personally like adding the comma generally for clarity and for consistency. I like the clarity it lends the list, and the consistency of having each item followed by a comma. But, that could be my slight OCD kicking in on that last point.
I was brought up (and live) in Australia and have never been taught to use the serial comma at all.
Although I may risk sounding naive by saying so, I must say that I had thought up until this point that it was just something used by some authors to add character!
I did not realise it was a convention as such, however I have always found it unnecessary; when the sentence is clearly ending anyway (“announced” by the ‘and’), why use a comma?
Having read this post, its use makes a lot more sense to me and I would certainly consider using it in future. I am a fan of good habits becoming automatic and it seems that perhaps use of the serial comma would be one such habit.